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 Air Force Vehicle Backing Policy
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JoeMZ191
Rookie

USA
67 Posts

Posted - Mar 05 2011 :  02:08:21  Show Profile  Send JoeMZ191 a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
We were recently briefed on and implemented the new policy for backing vehicles. I'll paraphrase;

-- Two ground guides. Both in the rear. Not a big change. We always did right front and left rear.
-- Two personnel in the cab. One to watch each mirror and their respective ground guide. Not sure I agree with this one. I like to see both mirrors when I drive. I always made the guy in the right seat lean back and stay out of my way.
-- Unlicensed drivers will not back into an enclosed area. I think this alone would have been sufficient.

Without question, backing accidents cause the majority of property damage and unfortunately we experienced a LODD from it. In my 20+ years with DOD, it seems there is a habit of overreaction. Someone rolls a truck and there is immediately speed restrictions placed on it. A backing incident and we add another person to the mix. I think it takes away from the drivers responsibility to maintain complete control of the vehicle and be aware of potential changes to the situation.

These comments are mine and mine alone.

Be safe.

Joe

gochargers
Lt

235 Posts

Posted - Mar 05 2011 :  13:33:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"-- Two personnel in the cab. One to watch each mirror and their respective ground guide. Not sure I agree with this one. I like to see both mirrors when I drive. I always made the guy in the right seat lean back and stay out of my way."

I agree here especially. It's annoying when someone is trying to look out your mirror when your driving.
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Hog Chief
Lt

Afghanistan
117 Posts

Posted - Mar 06 2011 :  03:48:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Really, thats the new AF policy on backing fire vehicles. I can see the two spotters, always been that way, just has to be enforced from the Asst Chief to the Driver level, no unlicensed drivers backing into the stalls makes sense, altought that driver has to learn sometime to back into the station. all makes sense with the exception of two people looking thru two different mirrors, the clearance behind the vehicle should be the responsibilities of the two spotters....Just saying, would like to read the official guidance.

Proud Veteran, "Support your Deployed Firefighters"
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oldtimer78
Lt

USA
102 Posts

Posted - Mar 06 2011 :  06:27:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Actually, this is NOT the new AF policy....there were a lot of things discussed right after this unfortunate accident happened, but there is NOT a new AF policy. I can't comment on what may have been implemented your base....

quote:
Originally posted by Hog Chief

Really, thats the new AF policy on backing fire vehicles. I can see the two spotters, always been that way, just has to be enforced from the Asst Chief to the Driver level, no unlicensed drivers backing into the stalls makes sense, altought that driver has to learn sometime to back into the station. all makes sense with the exception of two people looking thru two different mirrors, the clearance behind the vehicle should be the responsibilities of the two spotters....Just saying, would like to read the official guidance.

Proud Veteran, "Support your Deployed Firefighters"

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dblwde
Rookie

46 Posts

Posted - Mar 07 2011 :  21:10:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Just like the the Tender/ Tanker incidents we have been dealing with over the past 20 years, we are now dealing to these type of problems, again and again (AFCESA not reacting properly)!!!! I'm not trying to take anything away from the tragic circumstances regarding the incident which may have sparked this but, the AF needs to realize that CDC's will NEVER teach a 17 to 19 year old kid how to properly operate a 40k to 100k VEHICLE........... PERIOD!
ONLY Classes in house, taught by EXPERIENCED Operators help develop the respect needed to operate and perform these vehicles as desired both by the AF and FF community(NUFF SAID)! With the current ops tempo and rotatation of AF FF's from base to base we are lucky not to hear of more incidents occuring more often!!! However, I believe history will prove the current template of TRAINING is not prudent to the best interest of us all (in the DoD)...... The number game of CERTS will never out TRUMP "Real World Experience" from which we we can all gain!!!

Stay Safe Out There... AND TEACH AS MUCH AS YOU CAN!
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Engine03
Lt

109 Posts

Posted - Mar 07 2011 :  21:52:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
dbwde, You're 110% Right. It's Real World Hands-on experience that makes the difference in not only training, but also the day to day operations of the FD. I've said for years that the AF Fire Protection community is relying too heavily on CDCs, computers, power point and other assorted mechanical gadgets for its' training. Need egress training? toss in a CD. It's the same all over. Hello! We don't even train with REAL fires anymore! It's the LPG Trainer now. Honestly, when was the last time any of you actually felt the heat from a real JP-4 or JP-8 Pit fire? Now, if you look like you can do it, someone shuts off a valve in the tower and Magic! The fire goes out. It's the same for Driver's training. Sadly, we'll never know the whole and true story of what actually happened at Kadena; will be just another Report in a file, a statistic. Now the over reaction starts, "The Sky Is Falling" mentality. In the rush to see how many Certs we can get; how many Papers we can put in our "Hero Book", we're missing the point that dblwde makes - Real world hands on training, and more of it makes the difference, with qualified and experienced instructors. PEOPLE. Not CDCs on a computer. It was true for me at Rookie School at Chanute 32 years ago. It's still true today.
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colo firefighter
Rookie

USA
17 Posts

Posted - Mar 08 2011 :  08:56:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Engine 03- Well said!
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Hog Chief
Lt

Afghanistan
117 Posts

Posted - Mar 10 2011 :  10:22:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Valid points, but disagree... Drivers training is always part of the AF Fire Service, its part of the CDC program, every department should have a drivers training program (hands on) that teaches the new drivers how to operate and handle those big rigs. Crew Chiefs and licensed drivers should be mentoring and teaching the new drivers during their upgrade training, for ARFF, Pumper and MWS and Aerial if you have one.. Thats what the veterans do, train the new people right, so we dont have incidents like what happened. Certs dont make the driver, hands on drivers training conducted by veteran fire fighter, drivers and crew chiefs is what makes driver/operators. And if that is not happening then there is something wrong with your management and your crew leaders. You have to get out there and teach the new drivers, not the CDC program, its a tool for certification, doesnt teach them how to drive/operate those rigs, that your job if your good driver, or crew chief...nuff said.

Proud Veteran, "Support your Deployed Firefighters"
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Hog Chief
Lt

Afghanistan
117 Posts

Posted - Mar 10 2011 :  10:23:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
By the way Oldtimer, thanks for the clarification..

Proud Veteran, "Support your Deployed Firefighters"
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Engine03
Lt

109 Posts

Posted - Mar 11 2011 :  07:37:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I believe that's the exact point that dblwde and I were discussing, in regard to Driver's Training. It's always been, at least in FD's I worked at, that you didn't get qualified and licensed until you went out with an experienced and veteran Driver Trainer. He then put you through the Paces and said when you were ready. Like I said It's PEOPLE that make the training, not CDCs, Power Point, CDs, whatever.
You can sit in front of a computer all day, but it doesn't mean a thing until you get good, practical Hands-on training. Both dblwde and I believe and stress exactly that.
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FireDawg24
Rookie

37 Posts

Posted - Mar 12 2011 :  14:48:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think everyone is looking at the same apple, yet there are shades of orange being spun into the equation. We can all agree that it takes experienced people, in the right positions, willing to pass along their experience to a willing audience. I've learned things from HC (not much). I've learned things from folks who work for me, beside me, and above me. Backing a vehicle into a frickin fire station should be something that is second nature, yet we are killing kids in this process. Time to take a hard look at how we train, how we lead, and how we provide oversight for the whole ballgame. Nothings perfect, but knee-jerk reactions to tragedies is reactive instead of proactive. Putting 2 people behind a firetruck just adds to the number of people that can get run over IMHO.
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oldtimer78
Lt

USA
102 Posts

Posted - Mar 13 2011 :  11:48:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Again, there is NOT a new policy that has been directed by Air Force...and we are not "killing kids", there was a horrible accident, which resulted in the death of a young fire fighter. Be more respectful.


quote:
Originally posted by FireDawg24

I think everyone is looking at the same apple, yet there are shades of orange being spun into the equation. We can all agree that it takes experienced people, in the right positions, willing to pass along their experience to a willing audience. I've learned things from HC (not much). I've learned things from folks who work for me, beside me, and above me. Backing a vehicle into a frickin fire station should be something that is second nature, yet we are killing kids in this process. Time to take a hard look at how we train, how we lead, and how we provide oversight for the whole ballgame. Nothings perfect, but knee-jerk reactions to tragedies is reactive instead of proactive. Putting 2 people behind a firetruck just adds to the number of people that can get run over IMHO.

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FireDawg24
Rookie

37 Posts

Posted - Mar 13 2011 :  14:05:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Old timer,
I'm not sure where you get your info, but Joe was spot on with the "suggested" protocol for backing USAF fire apparatus into fire stations. It may not be "compliance with this directive is mandatory", but be a fire chief that doesn't follow these "suggested instructions" and see how long you have a job if someone gets hurt or killed.
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oldtimer78
Lt

USA
102 Posts

Posted - Mar 14 2011 :  04:28:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The protocols were never sent out to the field...as suggestions or otherwise. There was a flurry of activity right after the accident, and some protocols were drafted, but were never sent out as a new directive to the field.

quote:
Originally posted by FireDawg24

Old timer,
I'm not sure where you get your info, but Joe was spot on with the "suggested" protocol for backing USAF fire apparatus into fire stations. It may not be "compliance with this directive is mandatory", but be a fire chief that doesn't follow these "suggested instructions" and see how long you have a job if someone gets hurt or killed.


Edited by - oldtimer78 on Mar 14 2011 04:29:54
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JoeMZ191
Rookie

USA
67 Posts

Posted - Mar 14 2011 :  09:57:15  Show Profile  Send JoeMZ191 a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
Oldtimer,

You are correct Sir. Chief Warner sent it out as a proposal. After numerous forwards, we recieved it as a procedure to be implemented. The Chiefs are sorting it out.

Joe
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dblwde
Rookie

46 Posts

Posted - Mar 14 2011 :  18:55:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm Confused..... How do we get from "This is what we will be doing for backing up a vehicle in the station" too "there is no protocals, suggestions or otherwise"???? (I say overeactive AF, ANG and AFRES FF leadership, as usual)
Eitherway; I stand-by my previous comments! Is my Leadership just not with it?? Doubtful... I find it hard to believe we @ my base are that far out of the loop... And, I'm sorry "oldtimer" and "HogChief", but wishful thinking is just that! If I recieved FF's whom were trained based on your perception of what is supposed to happen, I prolly wouldn't ever be on here! Simply put, on this subject "Engine03" and "FireDawg24" have it SPOT ON!

IMHO! Stay Safe out there!









Stay Safe All! KEEP TEACHING YOUR PEERS!
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